Will Modifications Void Your New Car Warranty?

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
10/01/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

Modifying your new car won't automatically void your manufacturer's warranty. But it may cost you depending on the mod. Here is what you need to know.

I got a few questions the other day about vehicle modifications and whether a manufacturer can void your warranty over them after !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . A few astute readers pointed out that one of the other things Mag Moss did was forbid manufacturers from requiring consumers to use any particular brand of "article or service" to invoke warranty coverage.

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The law says: " No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name . . ."

So, they can't dictate what brand of parts you put on your car during the warranty period. Mr. Goodwrench, Motorcraft and Mopar are optional. But simply swapping parts is not the area of greatest concern here. The real concern is vehicle modification.

Many modifications people do to their cars fall outside of the "article or service" contemplated by the statute. Suppose you loved the way Vin Diesel could pull wheelies in !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in his Charger and figured a little of that "NOS" would do the same for your car. Even if your little four-banger won't pull wheelies in any gear, it now puts out a few more horses than before. So, if you find the transmission spitting out teeth like it's been punched in the mouth by Mike Tyson, you can bet the manufacturer might blame the problem on the increased power being fed to the trans.

The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act requires manufacturers to honor their warranties and auto manufacturers only warrant their vehicles against manufacturing defects. Your claim here could be denied because the failure was not due to a defect in a factory component. It was caused by something added to the car: the nitrous oxide injection system which was not part of your car to begin with. That system caused a non-defective part to fail. Your mod did not void the warranty. It's just that the failure was not caused by a factory defect.

Other popular modifications might likewise be problematic. Companies sell aftermarket modifications for Electronic Control Units which range from new programming to high performance replacement units. The net result is that the engine is now being controlled by a program unlike the one your car shipped with. Manufacturers know these mods exist and these will also run afoul of warranty coverage. Many Owner's Manuals specifically state that warranty coverage does not extend to changes to the vehicle's "configuration" and this limitation is not forbidden by the Magnuson Moss section cited above. The manufacturer is not requiring you to use a particular brand of item or service, they just don't want you using one that is altered to different settings than those configured at the factory. Or, put it this way: If your ECU went bad and needed replacement, you could replace it with one of any brand you liked, so long as it controlled the engine the same as the original.

Expect your warranty claim on your drivetrain to be scrutinized if you come in with a hopped up ECU. These claims are routinely denied so long as the failure appears to be related somehow to the new - altered - performance parameters of the ECU. And this is perfectly legal !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! which is the government entity charged with creating rules to implement the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.

Many factory warranties also broadly exclude coverage for "racing" or "high performance" aftermarket parts and failures associated with them. Again, manufacturers can legally do this. If you slap a high performance cam in the engine and the engine fails, the manufacturer will likely argue that the cam caused something else to fail which would not have failed but for the bumpy cam you threw it. Is this fair? Depends on how you look at it. Read any Owner's Manual you can get your hands on and you will see these warnings. Some might argue that you shouldn't have bought the car if you disagreed with these limitations.

Obviously, an aftermarket camshaft or a hopped up ECU won't void the entire warranty on your car. The master cylinder failed? The blue tooth quit working? Unless there is a logical connection between the mod and the part or system that failed, you should be good to go.

Keep in mind that some modifications can be undone if need be. I had a client whose stalling complaints were dismissed because he had a K&N air filter on his vehicle. If he had simply swapped the factory air filter back in before he had gone in for warranty work, the claim would probably have breezed through like any other. Instead, when the dealer could not find the problem with his engine someone pointed at the air filter and said, "That's it." (We rectified that decision later with some litigation.)

I know there are many mods - like the one pictured above - you can't just swap in and out whenever you feel like it. In those instances, be prepared to intelligently make the case for why that mod did not cause the problem you are complaining of. And if the dealer shoots you down, ask to speak to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! if they haven't already been consulted.

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I've had people tell me that the seller of the performance parts assured them that the new parts would not affect their warranty coverage. To that, all I can tell you is that they are not the one who has the final say on that; it's the manufacturer. Perhaps you should show them where your Owner's Manual addresses aftermarket racing parts and configuration changes to the vehicle. Ask how their product does not fit in those categories.

Also, there is a lot of confusion about the FTC's "Consumer Alert" on aftermarket parts which is referenced above. To be clear, the FTC explicitly said: "the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket or recycled part caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage." Once they have done that, they are all set. And the FTC's ruling did not sanction alterations, modifications or racing and high performance parts. The ruling addressed "Auto Warranties & Routine Maintenance." That is why it was called, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! It was not called "Warranty Coverage Guaranteed for Your Chipped Nitrous-Breathing Ride."

So, you can use any type of part or service you want during the warranty period so long as it does not alter or reconfigure the car from its factory specs. In the cases which do, you might run into problems getting warranty coverage for failures associated with those parts or modifications, especially if the parts are designed for racing or high performance. And as always, consult with a local attorney when in doubt.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto is a writer and attorney and has been practicing consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for 23 years in Michigan. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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DISCUSSION (100)

jariten1781 > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 13:05

Needs to be stickied in every automotive forum. Good write up.

SteveLehto > jariten1781
10/01/2014 at 13:06

Thanks for the note. I get asked this all the time. Obviously, an area of much confusion (understandably).

crowmolly > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 13:14

This will be all over the Internet like wildfire.

Thanks for another informative post, Steve!

SteveLehto > crowmolly
10/01/2014 at 13:16

I get asked this all the time - and I have represented a few people whose warranty claims were denied in situations like this - so I know it is a topic of great interest. Let's see what happens.

Thanks for the note.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 13:33

How about a mod that actually helps, i.e. Volvo's faulty "twin" intercooler replaced with a drop-in from iPd for the S60R/V70R? From what I dug up, the stock intercooler couldn't handle ambient temperatures above 70*F. And the next thing you know? You feel like you're driving a bog-standard S60 instead.

SteveLehto > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura
10/01/2014 at 13:35

It gets back to whether the failure was caused by the mod or not. Presumably, if the mod "helped" the car it wouldn't cause a failure. If it caused a failure, the reason it was installed is kind of moot.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 13:44

Trust me, I'd rather have the mod than deal with sluggish performance. Then again, it's Volvo.

SteveLehto > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura
10/01/2014 at 13:47

That's where - if you still had a new car warranty - you'd have to ask yourself if the risk (of having a non-warrantied failure) was worth the benefit (improved performance).

It is an interesting dilemma.

Mark > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 13:48

Very good synopsis on the possible end result of modifying your vehicle. I was the guy (field engineer for a major car maker), now retired, that would investigate and restrict warranties on vehicles that had unauthorized modifications. Usually performance mods that overpowered the design limits of the vehicle. A point I'd like to make: 1) Warranties can not be voided, they can only be restricted. I would, for example, restrict the powertrain warranty of ... say a Diesel truck that had the engine computer software reprogrammed (to add 100+ extra HP). Then if there was a failure of the powertrain, the dealer was required to review with the factory before warranty repairs would be ok'd (rarely if ever). 2) While the vehicle is under warranty, it's not a good idea to take it upon yourself to modify a vehicle. It's hard to re-engineer something from an aftermarket part to be better than what a vast team of experienced engineers have designed in to a vehicle that meets all EPA regulations and keeps the wheels rolling for 100K miles! You're not really going to beat the design that a manufacturer has spent 4.5 Billion dollars in R&D with a $500 bolt on kit. Yea.. I sat in court a lot, had a lot of depositions defending our (my) position on restricting warranties but only lost once (got "homered" in a small claims case). I think Steve will tell you that if you want to add on a kit that will put another 100 +HP to the wheels and the driveline blows up because you maxed out the design limits, you got what you "paid" for in more ways than one.

Mark > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 13:48

SteveLehto > Mark
10/01/2014 at 13:50

Thanks for the note. It's good to hear from others on this (and it helps to show that I'm not just making this stuff up).

My brother is an engineer and Ford and spent years designing suspensions. It would drive him nuts to see what guys did when they would buy a vehicle and immediately jack it up, drop it, or do whatever the latest craze was - that would destroy the suspension geometry.

BlackLab > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:02

Good article.. I was thinking (a while back) about chipping my g/f's Audi. As a turbo it responds incredibly well to modding. Downside is that I learned Audi can tell you altered the chip and will flag you - and thus blame you for various problems (if you had any).

I'd still do it if it was my own car - but for her I will skip because I don't want any trouble. The real gray area is when you mod something and it's blamed for breaking something unrelated. You still might have to get a lawyer and its a PITA..

SteveLehto > BlackLab
10/01/2014 at 15:03

Exactly. And there are gray areas which would require litigation. And very few people enjoy that.

Thanks for the note.

deekster_caddy > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:07

I'm always curious about the "Modified ECU/ECM/PCM" issue. If the ECM is returned to stock before going in for warranty coverage, how can they tell? Will they automatically deny pretty much anything in the drivetrain that could ever so remotely be related to the ECM programming because they see that it's been reflashed?

If I adjust the timing table, can they say that's the reason the transmission failed? (I like to tune for MPG, but it also usually makes a little more power - efficiency is efficiency after all)

Etc.

Peptide > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:07

This is probably going to hack-off a lfew people, but...I suggest that you don't modify a car if you can't afford to fix the potential resulting problems out-of-pocket. This eliminates any possible conflict with the OEM, your lender and perhaps even your insurance provider. I usually wait until the warranty expires to tear into a car and, if not, then I take it for granted that I am assuming the risk.

heeltoehero > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:09

This. 10000x this. I recently entered the Mustang world and immediately saw guys putting 1.5" drop springs on bone stock cars, eyeballing the rear "square" with an adjustable panhard bar and plumbs hung off the quarter panels, and calling it a day. This is my first stick axle car and there is a reason I won't drop the rear of my car more than half an inch. Pinion angle. You drop a 3 link car, you need to adjust the pinion angle, and I don't want to bother screwing with angle gauges and snaking my meaty fist up around the driveshaft and exhaust to screw with an adjustable upper control arm.

And the front of a Mustang? Not camber adjustable. Enjoy chopping up your shock towers for camber adjustable strut mounts or hogging out your front spindles to fit eccentric camber bolts because you dropped your car and now you have 3* negative camber in the front and can only get 5k out of a set of tires.

STEVOH > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:09

Any thoughts on Ford Motor voiding warranties if you use the factory supplied Line Lock on the new Mustang?

SteveLehto > deekster_caddy
10/01/2014 at 15:10

All gray areas. I am not an expert on ECUs BUT I have spoken with factory reps and they say that they can often tell if it has been messed with. If they think it has been, they they will probably deny coverage for powertrain issues downstream. Are they right for doing it? Hard to say. Will they do it? Yes. And what are you faced with then? Litigation.

They will assume you tuned to get monster HP. Whether you did or not.

Thanks for the note.

damnthisburnershitsux > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:11

I had a 2003 accord LX, the HVAC/Audio control panel went black one day when the car was in warranty. I took it in and the dealer (not the one I bought it from) told me it was my fault because of the phone charger I had in the 12V receptacle when I brought it in which they said had caused a short and fried the screen. This was back in 2003 or 2004 when the iPhone hadn't yet come out and most people had no charger in their car. I ended up contacting Honda directly and they straightened the matter out and I had the HVAC/audio system replaced.

I am however wondering does their statement hold any water? could an electrical failure be blamed on using a 12V accessory in the accessory port? You haven't modified the car, but what if they said the accessory was drawing too much current or something?

Susan > jariten1781
10/01/2014 at 15:11

I actually just did that. We get a ton of noobs in the Dart forums that ask "will a CAI void my warranty" .. -_- lol

SteveLehto > STEVOH
10/01/2014 at 15:12

If it is factory supplied and dealer installed, I would ask the dealer what, if any effect it has on the warranty. And see if you can get that in writing. That's all that matters.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:13

Come on.. I did it to discourage tailgaters..

Kinja'd!!!

SteveLehto > damnthisburnershitsux
10/01/2014 at 15:14

I have never heard of that one. I always thought the worst that could happen from plugging something into the dash-hole was you might blow a fuse.

Any electrical-types out there who know more about this?

jimz > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:14

one thing to keep in mind is that even though the manufacturer can't deny your warranty claim because you didn't use the factory brand of oil filter (e.g. Motorcraft,) if your Wal*Zone oil filter comes apart and trashes your bottom end, they then can deny a claim.

SteveLehto > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
10/01/2014 at 15:14

Wait - that's not stock?

jimmy-buffett > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:14

Steve, can you discuss how many of these conflicts may relate to how the relationship between the manufacturer and the dealer works for warranty billing? Obviously any dealer would rather bill you (the consumer) than bill the manufacturer for work, because what they charge you is much higher than the manufacturer-dictated rate/book time for warranty work. The impression I always get is not that the dealers don't want to work on your vehicle, but that they'd much rather charge the end customer to do it.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:16

It's why the engine's in the front now. Or so I'm told.

SteveLehto > jimz
10/01/2014 at 15:16

This is true. That's why you want to shop for a decent oil filter (etc), not just a cheap one. You think it's a bitch suing GM? Try suing the manufacturer of an oil filter made from old Chinese newspapers and apple cores.

dmat > deekster_caddy
10/01/2014 at 15:16

from what ive heard from people, most cars today have a counter that records every time the ecu/pcm/ecm is flashed. Its set to 0 from the factory and cant be reset back to it. Ive read that a few companies have found a way around this but ive not seen whether its true or not.

doubleshotpower > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:18

I would love to see a dealer mechanic break out his Mititoyo dial caliper and measure the camshaft lobes and say "yep, not a stock part. Also, the valve overlap is 4° greater than stock."

sklooner > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:18

Gee what a coincidence, while my truck was outside the dealer waiting for a warranty service on the gearbox, some pixie stole the ECU, now the dealer will never be able to tell it was modded

SteveLehto > doubleshotpower
10/01/2014 at 15:19

You'd be surprised at how often they catch stuff that you wouldn't expect. (And I've heard of consumers stupidly bragging about the mods to their vehicles on trips to the dealer - and then bringing it in to the same dealer later when something let loose).

SteveLehto > sklooner
10/01/2014 at 15:20

I wonder if anyone has tried that?

CorollaRollin' > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:24

If Honda designed the system so the HVAC system was on the same fuse as the cigarette lighter, they screwed up. Even if his charger broke the system, it is definitely a design flaw.

Susan > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:24

Thankyou for posting this. I 'stickied' it on our Dart forum; we get a lot of "will a CAI void my warranty?". It seems that even dealers get confused as to what is actually covered; not surprisingly though.

Thanks again! great read :)

Ike > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:24

A great article I'm wondering how this affects dealer install modifications.

My wife's fiesta had a sunroof installed by ford, they have tried not to fix the sync system saying the sunroof being miswired was the cause of the malfunction, and to contact the "cheap second rate shop" that installed it.

So I picked up my cell and called said shop. When the dealership I was standing in redirected my call to the shop, the guy behind the counter agreed to fix it "no charge" but was one of the weirdest times I have had in a shop (and I had a challenger that was in the shop 27 times in the first 9 months of it's life)

damnthisburnershitsux > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:24

I have a Bachelors in Physics so while I'm not an electrician I have more than a passing understanding of electricity, in my opinion if the 12V receptacle is properly grounded and a fuse in place, the answer should be no. That said there are devices (Fuel Shark) that claim however dubiously to be able to act upon the whole car by being plugged in to the 12V socket.

The other one I would consider is those devices that jump your car when the battery is dead by plugging into the 12V socket and charging the battery up like this thing called the Jump Up.

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CorollaRollin' > damnthisburnershitsux
10/01/2014 at 15:25

An accessory drawing too much current will blow the fuse, so regardless they would not have been able to prove your charger did it.

Pending Approval > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:25

Kinja'd!!!

VTEC be like...

jimz > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:26

"Hey, Deng Xiaoping died!"

Zzzzzzzzzz > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:27

Doubt it. You're right a fuse would probably have blown out before blowing your entire HVAC/Audio system. If the system can't handle the load or extra stress the fuse will prevent further damage from occurring much like a circuit breaker for your home.

SteveLehto > Ike
10/01/2014 at 15:27

Funny you should mention that. I have had clients with sunroofs which were defective - not installed by the MFR - and bought back under the lemon law. Dealer installed items should be safe but I can picture a factory rep claiming a dealer went too far if it installed race components or something. If it was me, I'd ask them to put something in writing saying that the options don't alter the warranty (and watch to see if the MFR would claim that was beyond their authority!)

Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > Susan
10/01/2014 at 15:28

Thanks for the note. This is a topic of much confusion obviously.

dmat > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:28

I say this feel much like what goes on with rc cars regarding modification. There may not be warranties with the products but just like real cars, if you modify the cars, the troubles that can result show up pretty quick.

Eggshen2012 > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:28

Then there are just plain stupid people who fail without modifying anything.

Like the guy who spent Saturday night at the drag strip, blew the clutch and had the car towed to the dealer to have the clutch replaced under warranty.

He forgot however to remove his classification letters from the windows.

I am sure the mechanics had a good laugh.

JayBe_III > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:29

I think they'd have a difficult time recognizing if a piggy-back ECU unit had been used. These have the cars ports plugged into a controller unit that can be unplugged in a matter of minutes. I mean I guess they could see if some of the plugs had been unplugged or something, but that's not exactly concrete evidence that another unit had been used.

SteveLehto > jimz
10/01/2014 at 15:30

YOU ARE MY HERO.

SteveLehto > Eggshen2012
10/01/2014 at 15:31

That's funny.

Thanks for the note.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > deekster_caddy
10/01/2014 at 15:32

It varies by company, but many ECUs have checksums that increment every time the ECU is flashed. The OEM can use this to determine if a car has had a reflash mandated by a TSB, but can also use it to see if the ECU was tampered with.

SteveLehto > JayBe_III
10/01/2014 at 15:32

That's the risk. If they catch it then they might deny coverage. Then it's a matter of whether it is worth litigating.

Dubblewhopper > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:33

Are you telling me, my flux capacitor nulled my Yugo's warranty? Dammit!

Jonathan Woodall > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:33

Awesome article! I have this conversation with people ALL THE TIME!

I know it's really a separate subject but it's worth mentioning that extended warranties aren't bound by the same laws so they can be voided for modifications. I have an extended warranty and I'm very glad I got it but I'll only use it if I have a major problem. Rule #1 should be to ALWAYS keep your stock parts in case your car needs to be returned to stock for warranty work.

AZRCD > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:35

Thank you, I was hoping you would write up something like this. I swear it's possibly the most misunderstood, misquoted and misrepresented "thing", ever, in the wooooooooooorrrrrrllllllldddd.

Also excellent leading picture!

SteveLehto > Dubblewhopper
10/01/2014 at 15:35

I didn't know Yugos came with warranties!

autojim > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:35

I wrote about this back in 2001. Jalopnik did syndicate it, but I can't find the reference as it was at least 3 site redesigns ago.

bluestatepatriot > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:35

How about a device that goes in the wiring for the drive-by-wire throttle in a Dodge Dart to remove the hesitation?

SteveLehto > Jonathan Woodall
10/01/2014 at 15:35

Thanks. I get asked about it a lot too.

And yes, that is a topic for another day.

SteveLehto > autojim
10/01/2014 at 15:36

2001? 13 years ago?

Dubblewhopper > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:36

Lol, if they did it would have lasted only 3 or 4 days max.

SteveLehto > bluestatepatriot
10/01/2014 at 15:37

If you have any problems that appear to be throttle-related, you are going to run into trouble with something like that.

heeltoehero > deekster_caddy
10/01/2014 at 15:37

I believe the fear is that the pcm may add a time stamp every time it's been flashed. The fact that the factory tune has been tampered with is plenty to stand on when denying the warranty claim.

doubleshotpower > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:37

The following story is not about modifications but more about how to deal with a service department warranty issue:

About 7 years ago one of my friends purchased a new limited edition VW Golf GTI R34. I believe the powertrain warranty was 40 or 45k miles. My friend traveled extensively for his job (mechanical engineer) and quickly piled up the mileage. He was 4 hrs from home and the timing belt snapped when he was 3000 miles out of the powertrain warranty. Being an interference engine there was extensive damage, with most of the valves bent but luckily no piston damage. The bill came to close to $5000.

A mutual friend, who is a patent attorney, put his retired dad in touch with my friend. His dad was a warranty claim guy for Ford and later Chrysler before retirement. He instructed my friend on how to handle his complaint. It only took about two weeks for VW and my pal to agree on a repair fee of about $2300, which was for a new, complete, cylinder head.

Upon receiving the repaired car back from the dealer, he sold it days later and swore off VW's forever. He purchased a Mazdaspeed 3 the next day and still drives it daily.

Sorry It's Not In Packages > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:37

Kinja'd!!!

I've worked for an attorney, and this, along with a lot of law — certainly not all — seems perfectly reasonable the way you describe it. In my limited experience, a lot of — again, certainly not all — litigation seems to stem from one party or another being a complete dick, as evidenced by the dealer you mentioned taking issue with a K&N air filter, or the metaphorical gentlemen refusing to take responsibility for destroying his Honda Accord's transmission with with 600bhp of NO2 goodness. Because paying to double the explosiveness of your vehicle is dandy, but paying to fix the hash of it is totally unacceptable, as is fixing a perfectly malfunctioning car if you're a mechanic.

SteveLehto > Dubblewhopper
10/01/2014 at 15:38

3/30. Three days, 30 feet - whichever you reach first.

dmat > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:38

maybe you could expand on the warranties when it pertains the 3rd party warranties. I decided to go for an extended warranty with my new truck. it took GM 3y/36k mile warranty and upped it to 7y/60k. The 3rd party warranty wasn't gm but another company .Would the same rules apply to this warranty as the factory one?

SteveLehto > doubleshotpower
10/01/2014 at 15:39

If you are "close" on a warranty claim like that you an often get some sort of goodwill if you go about it nicely. Not always but pretty often. Certainly worth pursuing.

Thanks for the note.

Quade > Peptide
10/01/2014 at 15:40

I'm with you. If you reflash the ECU and blow up the engine or transmission, the only honorable thing to do is eat it. People don't like paying for their own mistakes. It's un-american.

I love modding cars but, I mod older cars. I'm not going to pay $30+K for a new car, then screw it up with mods. As the Engineer mentioned above, most aftermarket mods are crap.

f5alcon > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:41

It also depends on what was modded and what breaks. If you add an engine part and your power windows stop working, they can't claim that the warranty is voided.

SteveLehto > dmat
10/01/2014 at 15:42

In many states, no. I am in MICH and here, those are not warranties but usually service contracts. CONTRACT being the operative word. If you read it, it usually covers a lot less than the warranty has exclusions etc that aren't in the warranty. The bigger problem though, is whether that third-party will stand behind the warranty. They have much less to lose by screwing you than the manufacturer does.

TheCrudMan > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:42

My own little anecdote: I had a transmission failure on a Nissan covered under warranty when I had an aftermarket "cold air" air intake on it. No problems with the dealer or Nissan. The part was aftermarket, and not in any way affiliated with Nissan (AEM) but was also listed for the car in the NISMO catalog.

SteveLehto > f5alcon
10/01/2014 at 15:43

Correct. They have to show that the mod caused the failure.

Thanks for the note.

DipodomysDeserti > deekster_caddy
10/01/2014 at 15:44

A lot of ECU programming uses a "checksum" function. Basically, every time the ECU is flashed, it makes a tally mark. If the tally mark on your ECU is mismatched from what the factory rep should be reading, there will be suspicion. Most ECU programmers keep track of the checksum and keep it in line. A rep is usually only going to look at your ECU if there is other suspicious stuff going on. If the techs can tell the exhaust or intake has been removed and put back one, they're probably going to look extra close at everything if you blow your engine up under warranty.

deekster_caddy > dmat
10/01/2014 at 15:44

Interesting, thanks! I'd love to hear if it's a definite thing.

Dsscats > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:44

Most likely 3 days.

SteveLehto > TheCrudMan
10/01/2014 at 15:44

I can't imagine an air intake leading them to deny coverage on a trans but you never know. The client with the air FILTER blew my mind. I thought he was mis speaking and kept asking him, "You mean 'air CLEANER'?" Nope, just the filter.

DipodomysDeserti > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
10/01/2014 at 15:45

Rollin' thrust.

SteveLehto > Dsscats
10/01/2014 at 15:45

What if you drove it 15 feet and it broke down? You pushed it back in (15 feet) and the warranty is gone.

ComradeSlow > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:46

A few weeks ago a CA Toyota technician shared with me that they get paid a flat fee for service work based on the time-per-task in their database. This is also how you are billed and why most quotes are a fixed price, assuming they correctly diagnosed the problem. The tech is therefore motivated to complete the job as quickly as possible, because in theory if they do every job twice as fast and are busy all day, they will be compensated for 16 hours of work in an 8 hour shift. This sounds great and isn't much of a secret. The part I didn't know was that when it comes to in-warranty repairs, the Manufacturer compensation rate for techs per task is vastly lower, often anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3 of the time in comparison. Needless to say dealerships and technicians don't see any profit doing in-warranty work and in if the dealership has a poor business ethic they can get very creative in their excuses as to why something is not covered under your warranty.

SteveLehto > ComradeSlow
10/01/2014 at 15:48

I have heard that before. It also depends on how busy the place is. I have seen some dealers which appear to really need more work in the back.

Thanks for the note.

deekster_caddy > Ike
10/01/2014 at 15:48

Did the guy behind the counter you were standing in front of get the call? That's awkward...

DipodomysDeserti > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:48

"Wait, you're telling me that engineer's know more about how my car works than me?"

-flat brimmed hat kid cutting the springs on his Civic

doubleshotpower > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:49

That is what my friend assumed. He isn't the 'in your face' type and handled it professionally, which is why he was so shocked with the repair estimate since it was barely over the warranty mileage. That's what pushed him to sell the car, as he really liked it but was put off at how VW (and the dealer) handled the claim.

SteveLehto > doubleshotpower
10/01/2014 at 15:50

Good point: The dealer could have gone to bat for him. Probably would have saved a customer.

autojim > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:51

Argh. 2011. Bad fingers! Bad!

deekster_caddy > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:51

Re: the air filter client - have you had much experience with the K&N/Overoiling/"Bad MAF sensor" issue? K&N says it can't happen. Much anecdotal evidence says it can. I won't use an oiled filter because of it. Curious if you've ever dealt with it from that aspect, a MAF sensor going bad being blamed on the filter?

MIATAAAA > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:51

My personal rule is:

While under warranty - only reversible modifications.

After warranty is expired - party time.

SteveLehto > autojim
10/01/2014 at 15:52

Makes much more sense! Does my piece make sense or does it contradict yours entirely?

rabidcontent > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:53

This is exactly why I quit putting K&N intakes on every car I get. After a few extremely grimy throttle bodies (and replaced sensors) I deemed the performance wasn't worth the extra pass-through. Really the only mod I can think of that doesn't seem to have any noticeable negative effect is a mild cat back or axle back exhaust. The decrease in backpressure is minimal with close-to-stock piping diameter, and you still get a bit of growl. In fact, since most good exhausts are stainless or some form of rust resistant alloy, they can actually last LONGER than stock. Any other mods, from HID lights (melted enclosures), to intakes (more crap gets through, and now it's coated in sticky oil), to suspension (mess with the geometry and you mess with the whole car), alllll have some kind of effect that is no bueno.

Ark > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:53

If the dealer tech sees mod parts, they will blame whatever your problem is on the mods. If your radio stopped working, they'll blame it on the harsh ride from your new heavy duty shocks. If your engine throws a rod, they'll blame it on the neon underlighting.

SteveLehto > deekster_caddy
10/01/2014 at 15:54

Never dealt with that or had anyone present it to me. As an aside, I use a K&N filter myself. Just the filter, everything else is stock.

TheCrudMan > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:54

I just thought of it because it's powertrain related and your client had the air filter problem. This one has a cone air filter thing. I wouldn't have put it past a shadier company or dealer trying to deny it because it's a powertrain mod...even a pathetic one. In any case, I don't get why dealers want to deny warranty work...the manufacturer is paying them to do the work. Guess cause it's a set rate and it ties up the tech's time when they could be doing $300 oil changes.

STEVOH > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:55

My understanding is that it comes on all Mustang GTs from the factory, it's not a dealer add on. It just doesn't seem right that a company can supply you with a function that will void your warranty.

SteveLehto > Ark
10/01/2014 at 15:55

Quite likely. That is the problem. Some of the connections between the mods and the failures is "tenuous," shall we say.

Thanks for the note.

slimdizzy > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:55

Most insurance companies here in Ontario, Canada will either not insure you or pull your coverage for mods done after the fact. Rims and tires aside (except stupid spinners, do they still exist?) but people still do it (myself included) because its fun. I got denied from Honda once after I had a plug blow out (known issue with them) but since I had swapped back my OEM air box with filter from aftermarket, they knew I had mods as the OEM filter was looking brand new. YMMV.

dekone > DipodomysDeserti
10/01/2014 at 15:57

I have heard of an albeit somehwat expensive work around for this: don't flash your original ECU, rather buy a used one from the auto wreckers, flash that, and in the case you need to have warranty work done reinstall your original, stock ECU prior to going in to the dealership. Most ECU's carry the vehicles VIN so dont try bringing in a second hand ECU with a stock flash or they'll immediately know its been swapped.

dekone > DipodomysDeserti
10/01/2014 at 15:57

SteveLehto > TheCrudMan
10/01/2014 at 15:57

I suspect that there are some dealers who would turn a blind eye to some of this (Especially if you were a good customer) BUT I hear that the MFR can charge back warranty repairs if they ever find out they paid on a repair they shouldn't have. Just depends on how obvious the mod is and the connection to the problem.

Indavis01 > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:57

It all comes down to the dealer you buy from. I have purchased full sized trucks for towing, and Jeeps (which you pretty much have to mod) added new suspension, coolers, ecu upgrades and such and never had a problem; Because the dealer sold similar vehicles modded by the them. Ultimately its up to the dealer to make the determination on whether or not to service under warranty. If he's selling modded trucks and jeeps, he's less likely to call in the factory for a consult.

WendellEDavis > SteveLehto
10/01/2014 at 15:58

Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to tech tab for work detail

www.jobs700.com

Agent-Goldfish > Aaron M - MasoFiST
10/01/2014 at 15:58

So have a second "fun" ecu. Hook up the stock one if there is an issue that requires you to go to the dealer/mfgr.